Cromulent said:This is what always gets me about the people arguing for social selling. If it was so good then everyone would do it regardless of whether there was an auction house or not. The fact that people stop doing it when an auction house is introduced just goes to prove what a massive pain in the arse it is and that as soon as something even slightly better comes along everyone stops doing it and it is only the hardcore few that hang around to keep doing it.
I enter the fray.. again. Not everyone enjoys selling, so you can't use your premise of "everyone would do it." But there's more variables than that also. Having an AH by nature reduces the chances of being able to sell socially as you remove the majority of players from the market and they just automate their goods through an NPC. So your chances of success /auctioning wares is reduced significantly due to there being a lack of human players in the market. Not to mention, you compete with slashed prices/undercutting as players have a much greater chance of obtaining the item you're selling especially if the AH system works like WoW where you can play and place items on the AH. I.E. If Pantheon has 8 character slots who can AH a total of 30 items each - you could sell 240 items while adventuring. Now.. expand that by a server base and it's easy to see how AH's can become flooded with items versus someone physically having to auction items.
And, I agree, it is a massive pain to some because it does take more of a time commitment. But, it's not near the time commitment that people have suggested here, or in previous threads. I used to go to the EC maybe once a month when I had a few bags full of gear - it wasn't a daily occurence. And often then, I even slashed prices to sell quick and get back to adventuring. And, the time commitment premise can be applied across the board - grouping can be argued as a massive pain to some because it's more of a commitment than soloing.
The root of the issue is many people don't enjoy selling wares as much as they do adventuring, so they're "ok" with convenience being introduced into the trader gameplay; however, at the same time are ok with adding inconvenience/time commitment/etc. to the adventuring/crafting (hopefully diplomacy) spheres. When, I'd argue, the game economy is as important, if not more so to the success and longetivity of the game than any of the previous three.
I also realize it's not 1999 anymore, and regional markets are already proposed to be tested - but, I'll be on record saying I'm not for regional AH's either, as I'd wager it will be within 2 years or less that the AH's will ultimately be linked into a global AH.
I do think a compromise can be made, but I don't think it involves traditional AH's. I'll throw in a shameless plug to the previous discussion where we had brainstormed a consignment/bulletin board/craigslist style/commodities market system - link below:
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house/view/page/6
Beefcake said:I avoid spam in all aspects of my life. Why would I want to sit and be spammed by traders all day. Worse than gold sellers.
No matter what, players will not limit themselves to only trading channels.
Unless you were interested in the price of goods or finding something to buy or finding someone who wants to buy what you are selling, I doubt you would.
To make matters worse, LFG spam is gonna be a thing too.
Hopefully VR implements some good anti-spam methods like player blocking, reporting, and the ability to leave chat channels. I'd also like to filter the information(can't see messages that are too long or have links in them)/rate of information (can't see more than X messages from a single person in a certain amount of time).
This way trade chat might not be so bad.
Beefcake said:I avoid spam in all aspects of my life. Why would I want to sit and be spammed by traders all day. Worse than gold sellers.
No matter what, players will not limit themselves to only trading channels.
It's true, you could/most likely would be spammed - people sold while running through zones or fighting in zones all the time. But, there's always the option to /turn off channels. /ignore players, etc. But, I think some of the spam could be diminished by a creative consignment system.
Raidan said:Beefcake said:I avoid spam in all aspects of my life. Why would I want to sit and be spammed by traders all day. Worse than gold sellers.
No matter what, players will not limit themselves to only trading channels.
It's true, you could/most likely would be spammed - people sold while running through zones or fighting in zones all the time. But, there's always the option to /turn off channels. /ignore players, etc. But, I think some of the spam could be diminished by a creative consignment system.
To me, consignment is just haggling with someone to avoid haggling with someone else.
Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Perhaps AH items should only show in the listing while players are logged in to help facilitate that, or at the very least an indicator to the online status of the person listing an item.
oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Spot on, but this will only work if AH has indeed heavy fees that penalize sellers and buyers and encourage player to player trading.
VR has made their decision, local AH, now we need to wait until alpha to test it.
Instead of arguing wich system you feel is the best, try to find ways to make them both co-exist, because (more than likely) they'll both be present in the game.
My suggestions, and I've said this a lot of times already are: Plat fees for posting items in the AH, 30-35% tax on items sold in the AH and 8-12 hour delivery time of items to the buyers.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Perhaps AH items should only show in the listing while players are logged in to help facilitate that, or at the very least an indicator to the online status of the person listing an item.
I disagree as this limits potential interactions. I used to fill up my friends list every week with players who were offline when I attempted to contact them. I maintained a spreadsheet with names and the items they had that I wanted. When someone popped online on my friends list, I would reference my spreadsheet really quick and then immediately send them a tell to inquire about the item.
jpedrote said:oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Spot on, but this will only work if AH has indeed heavy fees that penalize sellers and buyers and encourage player to player trading.
VR has made their decision, local AH, now we need to wait until alpha to test it.
Instead of arguing wich system you feel is the best, try to find ways to make them both co-exist, because (more than likely) they'll both be present in the game.
My suggestions, and I've said this a lot of times already are: Plat fees for posting items in the AH, 30-35% tax on items sold in the AH and 8-12 hour delivery time of items to the buyers.
I think that's too harsh of a penalty. Maybe under certain volatile market conditions that would be okay (city is being ransacked by invaders, bad faction, etc), but a flat 20% fee feels more than fair enough to encourage player to player trading. Beyond that, a listing fee is also appropriate, but it shouldn't be anything crazy high (you mention plat, I am thinking a few gold.) Delivery times should vary depending on whether or not someone is willing to pay a service fee for faster delivery.
oneADseven said:Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Even me, who hates haggling, will use player trades for high price items, to avoid fees and hopefully get lower prices.
What I want an AH for is all the daily little stuff, such as my common crafting mats, common spell components, and other small stuff that it's simply not worth traveling across the world to argue a price.
oneADseven said:I think that's too harsh of a penalty. Maybe under certain volatile market conditions that would be okay (city is being ransacked by invaders, bad faction, etc), but a flat 20% fee feels more than fair enough to encourage player to player trading. Beyond that, a listing fee is also appropriate, but it shouldn't be anything crazy high (you mention plat, I am thinking a few gold.) Delivery times should vary depending on whether or not someone is willing to pay a service fee for faster delivery.
Sry whe I said "plat" was in the sense of "money"
The 30-35% tax number was that high because of something you suggested, max faction reducing it by 5-10%, if you're of the same race as the city inhabitants.
To me the fast delivery should only be an option if the delivery time is reduce by half (aka no instant delivery), so let's say normal delivery takes 12 hours, fast delivery 5-6 hours. Making the delivery of items allways have a waiting period will encourage social trading more than anything else.
jpedrote said:oneADseven said:I think that's too harsh of a penalty. Maybe under certain volatile market conditions that would be okay (city is being ransacked by invaders, bad faction, etc), but a flat 20% fee feels more than fair enough to encourage player to player trading. Beyond that, a listing fee is also appropriate, but it shouldn't be anything crazy high (you mention plat, I am thinking a few gold.) Delivery times should vary depending on whether or not someone is willing to pay a service fee for faster delivery.
Sry whe I said "plat" was in the sense of "money"
The 30-35% tax number was that high because of something you suggested, max faction reducing it by 5-10%, if you're of the same race as the city inhabitants.
To me the fast delivery should only be an option if the delivery time is reduce by half (aka no instant delivery), so let's say normal delivery takes 12 hours, fast delivery 5-6 hours. Making the delivery of items allways have a waiting period will encourage social trading more than anything else.
30-35% isn't too bad. In EQ2, the default was 20% in your faction and 40% to buy from the opposite faction. You could get items to reduce the tax. Also, instead if paying the tax, you could go to the sellers house and buy from their box.
I would accept 30-35% to appease the social traders.
Beefcake said:oneADseven said:Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Even me, who hates haggling, will use player trades for high price items, to avoid fees and hopefully get lower prices.
What I want an AH for is all the daily little stuff, such as my common crafting mats, common spell components, and other small stuff that it's simply not worth traveling across the world to argue a price.
This.
Beefcake said:oneADseven said:Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Even me, who hates haggling, will use player trades for high price items, to avoid fees and hopefully get lower prices.
What I want an AH for is all the daily little stuff, such as my common crafting mats, common spell components, and other small stuff that it's simply not worth traveling across the world to argue a price.
Prety much my thoughts exactly. Putting in a fee% will incentivize those who want it to still /auc and give buyers who are willing to engage and haggle with "social sellers" to still have a chance at a price break.
oneADseven said:Every penalty or fee for one player is an opportunity for another. I could see 25% as a base for neutral faction, and that could fluctuate 5% either way based on faction (20% if you have good faction, 30% if you have bad faction) and another 5% fee for instant delivery. This would provide a range between 20-35% based on faction and delivery option. Beyond that, I think a listing fee is also appropriate, but players should have the option of paying a flat fee (for gear or high ticket items) or a percentage of sale for crafting components or other stuff you might sell in bulk. Perhaps 5% for this option? Now the range is 20-40% with plenty of variables that encourage player to player trading. I am happy about having auction houses but I am also someone that will do a ton of player to player trading to maximize profit. We just need to make sure we don't get too out of whack ... it's one thing to encourage social trading and another to basically place an unreasonable tariff on everything sold through an AH. I am fine with making compromises but it shouldn't get to the point where someone feels like they are getting fleeced when they use an AH.
Taxes will not solve the problem. Plenty of games with an AH tax rate between 15-30%, have yet to see mass p2p trading in those games. People just take the hit and move on. Mostly it just reduces the amount of goods you buy, but does not really push people to p2p trading.
oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp, we just don't agree. I've never seen the kind of trading space like NF/GF/EC Tunnel in any game that had an AH, including EQ after the bazaar was added. We grasp that there will be people contacting AH sellers to haggle, but the market for such will be extremely small relatively speaking. Especially if there are no tools added for non-AH trading. What you're describing is not emergent gameplay and has few of its characteristics.
We all understand the power of information and in many respects are asking for it to be limited. This applies to many aspects of the game (mob level/info, mini/global maps, quest tracking/info, etc). Information should be restricted when it comes to trading as well.
We're all aware of the advantages of an AH, and the detriments of them as well. We're asking for them to not be included, not out of ignorance or masochism, but with a sense that the game will be more immersive and intriguing with them absent. There's much that can be done to alleviate the tedium of p2p trade without losing the emergent gameplay that comes with it, but an AH will most likely destroy it, as it has in other games. We'll see what VR has on tap. Perhaps they've found the sweet spot for all of us, but most likely it will be significantly changed one way or the other before launch.
Finally, I respect the fact there are those among us who dislike p2p trading as much as I dislike the AH. I'm not sure what the answer is. In the end, though, VR will have to decide which style will have the focus. It will have a major impact on the game, which imo is why this is the largest topic on the forums.
oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
Automated grouping systems put more people and information at your fingertips too.
Also I'd like to add that you are clearly a stellar socialite. You could take any system and be ultra social in it. Most people wouldn't use an AH for social experiences, I know I don't. Kudos.
Archaen said:oneADseven said:Nothing is stopping people from socializing in a game that has auction houses. I have been doing it for years. Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? I enjoy the power of information that only an AH can provide. Then, using that information, I can contact sellers to try and haggle with price. Many of us have commented that we will still do player to player trading ... all high ticket items should be bought from a player to avoid auction house fees. It's been stated many times that auction houses can actually help facilitate player to player trading because of the power of information ... until someone can counter that argument I consider this case closed.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp, we just don't agree. I've never seen the kind of trading space like NF/GF/EC Tunnel in any game that had an AH, including EQ after the bazaar was added. We grasp that there will be people contacting AH sellers to haggle, but the market for such will be extremely small relatively speaking. Especially if there are no tools added for non-AH trading. What you're describing is not emergent gameplay and has few of its characteristics.
We all understand the power of information and in many respects are asking for it to be limited. This applies to many aspects of the game (mob level/info, mini/global maps, quest tracking/info, etc). Information should be restricted when it comes to trading as well.
We're all aware of the advantages of an AH, and the detriments of them as well. We're asking for them to not be included, not out of ignorance or masochism, but with a sense that the game will be more immersive and intriguing with them absent. There's much that can be done to alleviate the tedium of p2p trade without losing the emergent gameplay that comes with it, but an AH will most likely destroy it, as it has in other games. We'll see what VR has on tap. Perhaps they've found the sweet spot for all of us, but most likely it will be significantly changed one way or the other before launch.
Finally, I respect the fact there are those among us who dislike p2p trading as much as I dislike the AH. I'm not sure what the answer is. In the end, though, VR will have to decide which style will have the focus. It will have a major impact on the game, which imo is why this is the largest topic on the forums.
You don't agree with what? That it's possible to socialize on a server that has an auction house? Hah! If people can't figure out how to utilize player to player trading in a game with an auction house, that's a player issue, not a game issue. When you combine listing fees, broker commissions, and delivery speed, that's 3 incentives right there that should encourage player to player trading. It won't happen on it's own. People will still use the auction house. It's up to the player to navigate through the system and to offer bargains/convenience for shoppers. Suggesting that auction houses will destroy player to player trade is negligible. I have been a market player in every game I have ever played, with or without auction houses, and the only thing that can destroy player to player trade are the players.
As far as requesting trade information to be limited, that is something I will have to disagree with you on. I am fine with limited maps and quest journals. As far as NPC con goes, that's something that should be in the game. If the penalty for death is going to be severe, players should have an idea what they are up against prior to engaging. There will be times where a little skeleton looks pretty harmless but it just so happens to be a ^^^ heroic mob that is 5 levels higher. When it comes to trade, there are many players out there who don't want to make an in-game living out of playing the market. They want to go out and farm, craft, harvest, etc. Market players need folks like that so that we can identify good deals and pounce on them when they are available. Not everybody in the world wants to focus on trading. Some may do it full time, others a bunch, some here and there, and then there will be those who never ever deal with it. That's a fact of life.
We need to accept that there are folks with different playstyles. Auction houses protect newbs by arming them with information regarding the going rate of various products. I don't want to see "Price check on silk spindle" in my zone chat every 15 seconds because players who aren't committed to trade craft have no idea what their stuff is worth. Auction houses provide that information universally. Having an auction house can save a lot of grief because it provides a safety net for newbs so that they don't get ripped off when they try to buy or sell something. It also allows players with limited playtime to spend the majority of their time adventuring/crafting/harvesting and then a little bit of time setting up their auction house listings. That's how it should be. They shouldn't have to sell their stuff to merchants for pennies on the dollar, or get ripped off by some shmuck that wants to take advantage of their lack of knowledge. Auction houses level the playing field when it comes to the power of trade information.
Beyond all of that, there is still the very important fact that player to player trading can and will thrive. I will be doing it. If you or others can't figure it out, that's on you/them. I will be keeping tabs on every regional auction house and actively moving wares around. I may even level up a wizard for teleport if it would help my cause. I'll do my adventuring on one account and then all of my tradecraft on others. Not everybody can do that. If you want something bad enough ... figure it out. All of these claims on how auction houses will destroy player to player trade are absolutely far-fetched. You either have it in you or you don't ... good players adapt to the situation and work with what they have. You can quote me on this. "I will make a killing from player to player trading in Pantheon." No pussyfooting around here. I'll enjoy the best of both worlds ... play the auction house grind and then maximize profit through player to player trade, no excuses.
Folks, we have said that we will be testing both systems, with locational AHs and trading areas, so there will be something for everyone, I am going to go ahead and close this down as like the last AH thread, this one is also just spiralling into arguments over opinions and that is not what these development forums are for, we look forward to seeing you all in testing to help us find the best solution for this system, until then, please do not create any more Auction House threads.